Meaning there was a lot more atheism out there than we tend to believe? It would be nice to think so. Atheism is sometimes portrayed as some kind of weird modern cultural mutation, probably a by-product of the unnatural way we live today and connected in some people's minds to the breakdown of the family, praising Venezuela and dying your hair pink.
I avoided the Indian subcontinent but many religious developments there led to forms of atheism or something similar. It doesn't deserve the reputation which has been foisted on it, association with communism and left wing thought
Yes, as I said its extremely rare to find a total rejection of all supernatural phenomena, which seems the reserve of post Enlightenment era Europeans. But degrees of atheism and skepticism should be recognised.
It's a very strange mentality. I think it must be connected to the disruption and dispersal of Amazonian peoples after the collapse of their civilisation following the arrival of the Spanish.
I have the thought that great pain and great memory cannot coexist. If the past is painful/shameful we tend to repress the memory of it collectively, like we see in germany after world war 2, but also in all cultures suffering traumatic events that tend to replace their memory with some happier or prouder myth, national epos, or legend. Or forgetting/pretending it didn't happen altogether, to cope. Examples could be made many, but you know history.
I'm not sure. "Generational trauma" is often trotted out to explain the lower socioeconomic status of certain groups. But the jews do not seem to be experiencing generational trauma, neither do the han or plenty of other groups.
The jews atleast have great stories to tell. They take pride in the fact that they have overcome adversity, and indeed do not forget it. But that adversity is mystefied into a religion and a heroic story, otherwise the adversity would probably be unbearable. Kind of supports my point. Relates to the thoughts Jung and others have had on the therapeutical values of religion. See for example of the jewish view: https://open.substack.com/pub/etzhasadeh/p/the-jewish-people-as-narrative-violation?r=1ix096&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
Plausible. And, as to the han, well, I have been to the dark corners of the internet and have how industrialization is going for them.
The more specific point I am making is that generational trauma cannot explain socioeconomic status. It may come out in other ways, but not in ways that are measurable by statistical analysis and fixable by policy changes. However, in the education world at least, and in political conversation generally, it does seem that generational trauma is treated like some ghost hanging over certain populations, handing them bad grades and stealing their money.
The Normans, it seems, were kick-ass aristocrats like the Comanche but also built cathedrals and had a connection to certain popes. They invaded England while another branch drove out the Greek Christians, Muslims and various local Christian lords in southern Italy and Sicily. I just visited a massive fortification they built in Naples. They seemed to possess all three material/spiritual/moral conditions. My guess is they were half pagan Northmen who acquired a patina of Christian civilization in the 100 years or so they lived in France. They had the right balance at the right time in the right place. Kismet.
When I see something very unusual like what is said about the Piraha my first reaction is to doubt the truthiness of the account. Are there multiple credible sources about them?
Yes. I will dive more deeply into the Piraha another time, there are many sources to back up Everett's descriptions. Arguments do exist over whether they possess some kind of recursive feature in their grammar
Watch any film clip of Everett. If you come away feeling he is a reliable narrator, you have very different gut instincts from mine.
When an anthropologist comes back reporting something really, really bananas about a people who speak a language only about 3 other outsiders speak .... well one reaction is just to believe it, I guess.
Yes, I have the same scepticism about Western interactions with totally alien cultures. Considering how many linguists disagree over translations of the Bible, how does one confidently conclude anything about pre-modern Amazonian cultures.
Well, but in most cases there are multiple outsiders who speak the language in question, even if it is a relatively small or isolated Amazonian language. The Piraha case is suspect because it is an outlier in two regards: an outlier in terms of what Everett claims about it and an outlier in terms of how few outsiders other than Everett are in a linguistic position to check his assertions. It's not just that Piraha people are a small / isolated population, apparently Piraha is unusually difficult to learn and Piraha is a linguistic isolate: there are no other living languages related to it where you could say "oh yes, related languages show similar features so he's probably right about this" or "well no, related languages are not like this at all so he's obviously wrong about this". So this case is not really about "all linguistic anthropology is BS anyway probably".
I think this is more enlightening about the strange features of the western European atheist mindset more than anything else. I'm guessing that each form of atheism is unique to each culture, and it can be tracked quite easily through comparative history when and where it emerges.
As you have mentioned, the Buddhist movement in ancient India and the Legalist/Confucian movements in ancient China are clearly quite similar to the Enlightenment, Marxist and Atheist movements in Western Europe.
Western atheism to me is very obviously descended from the Protestant belief systems. You can see all the Calvinist and Puritan thought lines in atheism of the West if you look close enough.
I'm guessing the Piraha, Comanche or ancient Greeks would find a modern western atheist intolerably abstract in their thought.
I think it is rather interesting if you consider the moral assumptions that atheists have since they align with Christian moral assumptions about how the world should be, not what it is.
Secularism is prior I suspect, and we were 'worlding' before we were religious, which is a type of world-building (the 'more complex' doubling down you refer to but rejected by Pirahã & Comanche when offered). One is still worlding when one rejects or accepts or critcises (as one should) world-building (religion, systems of morality, government, empire -- religions are merely imperial government departments gone rogue or become zombified by history).
Secularism is prior, but we may need a better word.
Which is a partial explanation for why atheists are looked down on; this sort of intellectually dishonesty is no better than creationists, who are also looked down on.
Interesting stuff as always. The bit on the Comanche I find particularly interesting. After reading your "Metaphysics of Aztec Violence" (and ordering the book reviewed) I found myself thinking about this understanding of the world and of violence in relation to Cormac McCarthy (as, for me, most though not all roads lead to McCarthy) and whether McCarthy had a similar understanding of this metaphysics. I think not only of Blood Meridian but also, and perhaps especially, of The Crossing. The man read nonfiction at an incredible rate so if the research was out there in english or spanish he probably encountered it. Now, to bring it back to the Comanche- is their religious understanding so different from the metaphysics of the aztecs as presented in the Maffie book? If so, is there something of a clash of the two world-pictures in Blood Meridian and the Border Trilogy?
Your introductions are always so wonderful at setting the stage. Most bloggers don't seem to do that, but I'm trying to move in that direction. I suspect you simply have a gift for it - I have a very hard time getting the right tone in an opening paragraph the way you seem so effortlessly to do in post after post.
Terrific post. Genuinely enlightening.
Thank you, glad you enjoyed it. It was very much a tip of the iceberg of atheism across the world.
Meaning there was a lot more atheism out there than we tend to believe? It would be nice to think so. Atheism is sometimes portrayed as some kind of weird modern cultural mutation, probably a by-product of the unnatural way we live today and connected in some people's minds to the breakdown of the family, praising Venezuela and dying your hair pink.
I avoided the Indian subcontinent but many religious developments there led to forms of atheism or something similar. It doesn't deserve the reputation which has been foisted on it, association with communism and left wing thought
That depends on exactly how one defines "atheism".
Do the Pirahá's spirits count as gods?
As for the Comanche, it sounds like they do have the Great Spirit, medicine men, etc., the just don't take them particularly seriously.
Yes, as I said its extremely rare to find a total rejection of all supernatural phenomena, which seems the reserve of post Enlightenment era Europeans. But degrees of atheism and skepticism should be recognised.
The Pirahá seem like they do not possess memory, collectively or individually. Scary to see the effects. "Remember God".
It's a very strange mentality. I think it must be connected to the disruption and dispersal of Amazonian peoples after the collapse of their civilisation following the arrival of the Spanish.
I have the thought that great pain and great memory cannot coexist. If the past is painful/shameful we tend to repress the memory of it collectively, like we see in germany after world war 2, but also in all cultures suffering traumatic events that tend to replace their memory with some happier or prouder myth, national epos, or legend. Or forgetting/pretending it didn't happen altogether, to cope. Examples could be made many, but you know history.
I'm not sure. "Generational trauma" is often trotted out to explain the lower socioeconomic status of certain groups. But the jews do not seem to be experiencing generational trauma, neither do the han or plenty of other groups.
The jews atleast have great stories to tell. They take pride in the fact that they have overcome adversity, and indeed do not forget it. But that adversity is mystefied into a religion and a heroic story, otherwise the adversity would probably be unbearable. Kind of supports my point. Relates to the thoughts Jung and others have had on the therapeutical values of religion. See for example of the jewish view: https://open.substack.com/pub/etzhasadeh/p/the-jewish-people-as-narrative-violation?r=1ix096&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
Plausible. And, as to the han, well, I have been to the dark corners of the internet and have how industrialization is going for them.
The more specific point I am making is that generational trauma cannot explain socioeconomic status. It may come out in other ways, but not in ways that are measurable by statistical analysis and fixable by policy changes. However, in the education world at least, and in political conversation generally, it does seem that generational trauma is treated like some ghost hanging over certain populations, handing them bad grades and stealing their money.
Interesting article. Thanks.
The Normans, it seems, were kick-ass aristocrats like the Comanche but also built cathedrals and had a connection to certain popes. They invaded England while another branch drove out the Greek Christians, Muslims and various local Christian lords in southern Italy and Sicily. I just visited a massive fortification they built in Naples. They seemed to possess all three material/spiritual/moral conditions. My guess is they were half pagan Northmen who acquired a patina of Christian civilization in the 100 years or so they lived in France. They had the right balance at the right time in the right place. Kismet.
I am a solidly pro-Norman account
When I see something very unusual like what is said about the Piraha my first reaction is to doubt the truthiness of the account. Are there multiple credible sources about them?
Yes. I will dive more deeply into the Piraha another time, there are many sources to back up Everett's descriptions. Arguments do exist over whether they possess some kind of recursive feature in their grammar
Watch any film clip of Everett. If you come away feeling he is a reliable narrator, you have very different gut instincts from mine.
When an anthropologist comes back reporting something really, really bananas about a people who speak a language only about 3 other outsiders speak .... well one reaction is just to believe it, I guess.
Yes, I have the same scepticism about Western interactions with totally alien cultures. Considering how many linguists disagree over translations of the Bible, how does one confidently conclude anything about pre-modern Amazonian cultures.
Well, but in most cases there are multiple outsiders who speak the language in question, even if it is a relatively small or isolated Amazonian language. The Piraha case is suspect because it is an outlier in two regards: an outlier in terms of what Everett claims about it and an outlier in terms of how few outsiders other than Everett are in a linguistic position to check his assertions. It's not just that Piraha people are a small / isolated population, apparently Piraha is unusually difficult to learn and Piraha is a linguistic isolate: there are no other living languages related to it where you could say "oh yes, related languages show similar features so he's probably right about this" or "well no, related languages are not like this at all so he's obviously wrong about this". So this case is not really about "all linguistic anthropology is BS anyway probably".
I think this is more enlightening about the strange features of the western European atheist mindset more than anything else. I'm guessing that each form of atheism is unique to each culture, and it can be tracked quite easily through comparative history when and where it emerges.
As you have mentioned, the Buddhist movement in ancient India and the Legalist/Confucian movements in ancient China are clearly quite similar to the Enlightenment, Marxist and Atheist movements in Western Europe.
Western atheism to me is very obviously descended from the Protestant belief systems. You can see all the Calvinist and Puritan thought lines in atheism of the West if you look close enough.
I'm guessing the Piraha, Comanche or ancient Greeks would find a modern western atheist intolerably abstract in their thought.
Fascinating read. Do you intend to post about how the Bubonic plague was not just a massively lethal virus, but was also systemically racist?
I could do, but others have taken that research to task
Ah. If you or anyone can share a link to the criticism, I would be grateful.
The Piraha sounds like they actually live in the moment, present.
The Piraha literally believe one cannot step into the same river twice. Heraclitus smiled.
I think it is rather interesting if you consider the moral assumptions that atheists have since they align with Christian moral assumptions about how the world should be, not what it is.
Agreed. For a group of 'skeptics' they seem very uninterested in examining where their moral foundations come from
Religion is not prior, so neither is atheism raised in reactions to it. Been writing on this today https://whyweshould.substack.com/p/re-wheeling-invention
Secularism is prior I suspect, and we were 'worlding' before we were religious, which is a type of world-building (the 'more complex' doubling down you refer to but rejected by Pirahã & Comanche when offered). One is still worlding when one rejects or accepts or critcises (as one should) world-building (religion, systems of morality, government, empire -- religions are merely imperial government departments gone rogue or become zombified by history).
Secularism is prior, but we may need a better word.
I propose worlding.
except that people who've gone back there have found that they *do* have creation myths, store food etc. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPDwx2wVGV0).
But this still gets spruiked.
Which is a partial explanation for why atheists are looked down on; this sort of intellectually dishonesty is no better than creationists, who are also looked down on.
can't wait for you next book man
Interesting stuff as always. The bit on the Comanche I find particularly interesting. After reading your "Metaphysics of Aztec Violence" (and ordering the book reviewed) I found myself thinking about this understanding of the world and of violence in relation to Cormac McCarthy (as, for me, most though not all roads lead to McCarthy) and whether McCarthy had a similar understanding of this metaphysics. I think not only of Blood Meridian but also, and perhaps especially, of The Crossing. The man read nonfiction at an incredible rate so if the research was out there in english or spanish he probably encountered it. Now, to bring it back to the Comanche- is their religious understanding so different from the metaphysics of the aztecs as presented in the Maffie book? If so, is there something of a clash of the two world-pictures in Blood Meridian and the Border Trilogy?
Your introductions are always so wonderful at setting the stage. Most bloggers don't seem to do that, but I'm trying to move in that direction. I suspect you simply have a gift for it - I have a very hard time getting the right tone in an opening paragraph the way you seem so effortlessly to do in post after post.
Tom Wolf wrote a very good book titled “The Kingdom of Speech”.
It relates the story of Everett’s battle with Chomsky over the language of the Pirahã.
Wasn't there also some really small and barely known Asian tribe that was atheist
Wonderful work