Many thanks for these essays. In line (I think) with your conclusions, I recall that the 'Cambridge History of Ancient China' refers to a marked change in religious practices in the late Shang. This seems to reflected in the following account of from the 'Book of Poetry', representing, we may suppose, Zhou practice:
"For offerings and sacrifice;
We seat the representatives of the dead, and urge them to eat:
It strikes me that there's a distinctly transactional aspect to this work: the living entertain the dead in expectation that the latter will intervene with the Heavenly powers on behalf of the former (their descendants). The happiness in question [福 fú] refers to, 'good fortune, favour, blessing' (Kroll: 120). A splendid view of human relations with the Divine, I think: rather less grovelling and more mutual relationship.
Moreover, the 'representatives of the dead' are personators [尸 shī] 'persons serving as a surrogate for the deceased' (Kroll: 410); the spirits of the dead supposedly occupying the living person, pro tem. These were usually younger members of the family and verse 5 records them withdrawing 'having drunk to the full'. One imagines that this was to permit the adults to get on with some serious drinking. In a comment, James Legge, somewhat disapprovingly, suggests that the Zhou practice seems to have been an excuse for a drinking party.
This distinctly down-to-earth view of ritual and religion seems, to me at least, to point to the later pragmatic, not to say deistic, views of, in particular, Confucius and Xunzi.
yeah, I totally love stuff like this. it’s a somewhat esoteric topic that’s very close to a lot of things I am interested in, and it’s just excellent historical writing. Honestly most historical stuff after 1945 is suspect, and after 2000 even worse. it’s great reading a writer who is honestly searching for an answer and not pushing some bullshit political point.
Amen to that. I have a cut-off point at around AD 2000 too, Including, most, sadly dictionaries. I always keep my old two-volume edition of the Shorter Oxford to hand. Happily, it defines rather than preaches.
Many thanks for these essays. In line (I think) with your conclusions, I recall that the 'Cambridge History of Ancient China' refers to a marked change in religious practices in the late Shang. This seems to reflected in the following account of from the 'Book of Poetry', representing, we may suppose, Zhou practice:
"For offerings and sacrifice;
We seat the representatives of the dead, and urge them to eat:
Thus seeking to increase our bright happiness [福 fú] [. (P-209.1)
ctext.org/book-of-poetry/chu-ci
It strikes me that there's a distinctly transactional aspect to this work: the living entertain the dead in expectation that the latter will intervene with the Heavenly powers on behalf of the former (their descendants). The happiness in question [福 fú] refers to, 'good fortune, favour, blessing' (Kroll: 120). A splendid view of human relations with the Divine, I think: rather less grovelling and more mutual relationship.
Moreover, the 'representatives of the dead' are personators [尸 shī] 'persons serving as a surrogate for the deceased' (Kroll: 410); the spirits of the dead supposedly occupying the living person, pro tem. These were usually younger members of the family and verse 5 records them withdrawing 'having drunk to the full'. One imagines that this was to permit the adults to get on with some serious drinking. In a comment, James Legge, somewhat disapprovingly, suggests that the Zhou practice seems to have been an excuse for a drinking party.
This distinctly down-to-earth view of ritual and religion seems, to me at least, to point to the later pragmatic, not to say deistic, views of, in particular, Confucius and Xunzi.
Thanks again.
amazing set of essays. thank you!
I'm really glad you enjoyed them, I wasn't sure anyone would read all three!
yeah, I totally love stuff like this. it’s a somewhat esoteric topic that’s very close to a lot of things I am interested in, and it’s just excellent historical writing. Honestly most historical stuff after 1945 is suspect, and after 2000 even worse. it’s great reading a writer who is honestly searching for an answer and not pushing some bullshit political point.
Amen to that. I have a cut-off point at around AD 2000 too, Including, most, sadly dictionaries. I always keep my old two-volume edition of the Shorter Oxford to hand. Happily, it defines rather than preaches.