I do not get how this thread can be pulled, and Apollo not being identified with Odin as the evident conclusion. Not only the wolf thing, but of course they are both Gods of prophecy with female seers, Gods of medicine, of death and healing and they even share the myth of chasing the forest nymph/rå through the forest to the tree in order to learn forbidden knowledge. How Dumezil could miss this as always astonished me.
Because there were many other possible parallelisms: interpretatio germanica saw Odin as Mercurius since both were psycopomp and Odin was the Gods' King as Iuppiter/Zeus. Moreover, Zeus too had oracles (Dodona and Olimpia itself) and chased forbidden knowledge (Nonnus told he chased and swallowed Phanes to know everything). The square was circled by Calasso when he identified Apollo/Phebus as Zeus' heir, so identifying again Apollo and Gods' Prince. But, most important, Dumezil tried to follow the many rivers of "pagan" religions to the indoeuropean source but, as i said, there are many rivers from that spring and any single one si different.
There is no reason to claim Odin as the psychopomp. Baldur is the one ruling in Hel and Bragi is Mercury, the "Priest" God. The Romans could just not allow the gemranics to have their own God of civilisation. Dumezil worked hard, but we have advanced since him. Thre is no reason to stagnate with Dumezil and become what.. Dumezilists?
In the end, it is very easy. Odin and Apollo are both the Gods of Thumos, of Higher Will.
Our understanding on GERMAN paganism depends on Roman sources (our knowledge of Scandinavian depends on a scandinavian CHRISTIAN so is better but still not best) that equated Odin with Merurius and they never spoke of Baldur or Bragi. Not even discussing your intentional fallacy, as you do not bother to discuss the other, more "prestigous" possible parallelism - equating Odin to Zeus/Iuppiter is more "prestigius" than equating him to Apollo, isn't it?.
If you want to belive Odin and Apollo both are Gods of Thumos (?) you are absolutely entitled of your opinion, but the correct answer to your (now clearly rethorical) question "How Dumezil could miss this" is mine.
Fwiw, imho our understanding of German (and Scandinavian) paganism is so corrupted by our mediated sources that is close to impossible to discuss it to the level of direct comparison. E.g. Tacitus spoke of "Isis of Suebi" and Ammianus said Medericus was a follwer of Isis so strict he called his son Serapio: wat mens? That in the I AD the cult of Isis was so widespread that the Suebi adopted it? Or Tacitus used an interpretatio on a Sueba goddess (Freya?) while Ammianus referred to the proper mysteric cult of Isis similat to Apuleius' one? Or: can we really say Ragnarök is an original Scandinavian myth, since there is no trace of it in earlier greek-roman sources while is obvious the Christian parallelism?
We have the icelandic sources, several scandinavian folktales and quite a lot of roman and greek sources on “paganism”. So there is no lack of sources, we have plenty. The primary problem is a lack of understanding of what “paganism” even is, trying to fit it into a chrisitan understanding of “religion”, separate from secular life, in a context where “religion” (what christians have) is separate from magic and superstition (what pagans have), and the former being defined by belief. But paganism is not a “belief system”, it is a “living system” in an oral culture, intimitly tied to the calendar system and oral mnemonics of agricultural life. It spread with agriculture and stayed remarkably unchanged for millenia. Because an oral tradition that is foundational for a society’s survival, will not change. With this (correct framework), we can track it back through time all the way back to the agriculturalists that invented the agricultal/calendrical mnenomicsystem, 8200 years ago.
You have compleately degenerated in a LARPagan "we wuz paganz" absolutely disconnected from the point of the post.
"and greek sources on “paganism”. So there is no lack of sources, we have plenty." show you have not (a) understood or (b) read my point on MEDIATED sources. You are litteraly trying to use Sir Orfeo to understand orphic mysteries.
> In contrast, Apollo’s darkness offers little by way of invitation. It does not overwhelm, he does not want anything from you. The Far-Shooter operates from a distance, he cannot be humanised. Remote, indifferent, withdrawn.
This almost sounds like the modern banality of bureaucratic evil.
I do not get how this thread can be pulled, and Apollo not being identified with Odin as the evident conclusion. Not only the wolf thing, but of course they are both Gods of prophecy with female seers, Gods of medicine, of death and healing and they even share the myth of chasing the forest nymph/rå through the forest to the tree in order to learn forbidden knowledge. How Dumezil could miss this as always astonished me.
Because there were many other possible parallelisms: interpretatio germanica saw Odin as Mercurius since both were psycopomp and Odin was the Gods' King as Iuppiter/Zeus. Moreover, Zeus too had oracles (Dodona and Olimpia itself) and chased forbidden knowledge (Nonnus told he chased and swallowed Phanes to know everything). The square was circled by Calasso when he identified Apollo/Phebus as Zeus' heir, so identifying again Apollo and Gods' Prince. But, most important, Dumezil tried to follow the many rivers of "pagan" religions to the indoeuropean source but, as i said, there are many rivers from that spring and any single one si different.
There is no reason to claim Odin as the psychopomp. Baldur is the one ruling in Hel and Bragi is Mercury, the "Priest" God. The Romans could just not allow the gemranics to have their own God of civilisation. Dumezil worked hard, but we have advanced since him. Thre is no reason to stagnate with Dumezil and become what.. Dumezilists?
In the end, it is very easy. Odin and Apollo are both the Gods of Thumos, of Higher Will.
Our understanding on GERMAN paganism depends on Roman sources (our knowledge of Scandinavian depends on a scandinavian CHRISTIAN so is better but still not best) that equated Odin with Merurius and they never spoke of Baldur or Bragi. Not even discussing your intentional fallacy, as you do not bother to discuss the other, more "prestigous" possible parallelism - equating Odin to Zeus/Iuppiter is more "prestigius" than equating him to Apollo, isn't it?.
If you want to belive Odin and Apollo both are Gods of Thumos (?) you are absolutely entitled of your opinion, but the correct answer to your (now clearly rethorical) question "How Dumezil could miss this" is mine.
Fwiw, imho our understanding of German (and Scandinavian) paganism is so corrupted by our mediated sources that is close to impossible to discuss it to the level of direct comparison. E.g. Tacitus spoke of "Isis of Suebi" and Ammianus said Medericus was a follwer of Isis so strict he called his son Serapio: wat mens? That in the I AD the cult of Isis was so widespread that the Suebi adopted it? Or Tacitus used an interpretatio on a Sueba goddess (Freya?) while Ammianus referred to the proper mysteric cult of Isis similat to Apuleius' one? Or: can we really say Ragnarök is an original Scandinavian myth, since there is no trace of it in earlier greek-roman sources while is obvious the Christian parallelism?
We have the icelandic sources, several scandinavian folktales and quite a lot of roman and greek sources on “paganism”. So there is no lack of sources, we have plenty. The primary problem is a lack of understanding of what “paganism” even is, trying to fit it into a chrisitan understanding of “religion”, separate from secular life, in a context where “religion” (what christians have) is separate from magic and superstition (what pagans have), and the former being defined by belief. But paganism is not a “belief system”, it is a “living system” in an oral culture, intimitly tied to the calendar system and oral mnemonics of agricultural life. It spread with agriculture and stayed remarkably unchanged for millenia. Because an oral tradition that is foundational for a society’s survival, will not change. With this (correct framework), we can track it back through time all the way back to the agriculturalists that invented the agricultal/calendrical mnenomicsystem, 8200 years ago.
You have compleately degenerated in a LARPagan "we wuz paganz" absolutely disconnected from the point of the post.
"and greek sources on “paganism”. So there is no lack of sources, we have plenty." show you have not (a) understood or (b) read my point on MEDIATED sources. You are litteraly trying to use Sir Orfeo to understand orphic mysteries.
Not interested.
> In contrast, Apollo’s darkness offers little by way of invitation. It does not overwhelm, he does not want anything from you. The Far-Shooter operates from a distance, he cannot be humanised. Remote, indifferent, withdrawn.
This almost sounds like the modern banality of bureaucratic evil.
This is a great piece. Thanks, I ordered a ccuple of books.
In the quote "But Apollo and Athena were envious of force,"
Shouldn't that be Apollo and Artemis?